Charles Trebaol (Ven. Thubten Kunga) has spent the last four years of his life in retreat. Now residing in a small stone hut in the French Pyrenees, Charles, who is 38 years old, has no intention of changing lifestyle. At first resistant to the idea of an interview, when he finally agreed, he spoke very openly with Nalanda monks Vens. Henri Charpentier, Michel Barret and Viggo Johansen when they went to see the skinny but happy hermit.

Could you say something about your life before you became a monk?

I was a very naughty boy, not interested in studies but liked to play and fight with my friends. When I was 13, I met some Dharma – Lobsang Rampa, you know (laughter)! But some things were interesting, like impermanence. It helped my mind a little bit.

I think when we are small the mind is more open and flexible, so when we hear something we can immediately put it into practice. Now, on the other hand, my concepts are good strong.

After this I had a very black period. I was nearly crazy, in the true meaning of the word. I was working in a psychiatric hospital and I became a little crazy, like taking drugs and alcohol.

Then when I was 22 years old, I went to India. At one point a friend gave me two books about Dharma, and I said, This is what I have been always looking for. I was in Dharamsala at the time and he told me about Kopan. I went to Kopan where I met Lama Zopa and Lama Yeshe, and I thought, Okay, these are holy beings. After that I started to change.

For a few years I was quite sincere. I went to Institut Vajrayogini to work and tried to practice a little. I felt proud to be a follower of Mahayana and proud to have a tiny atom of devotion to the holy lama. Then, due to delusions and due to karma, an object of desire came. Sometimes, when we feel we are good disciples, and object of desire comes and we become disciples of desire – and also slaves to the self-cherishing mind. That’s what I became.

I tried to pray to the holy lama and at least not to bring suffering to others, but at that time I put more effort into the object of desire and less effort to find the lama – I was going the wrong way. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche says that the holy lama is like a mountain of snow and how much blessing we can receive depends on how strong our devotion is. The more we put energy into devotion, the more we can receive the blessing of the lama.

So at that time life became black and without meaning and I brought suffering into the hearts of my vajra brothers and sisters. This was due to desire. Some people say they have experiences of the great bliss of Dharmakaya in their meditation; well, at that time I had an experience in meditation – I had the experience of hell. And if the experience of bliss is not expressible, the terror of hell is the same. It’s not expressible. In the end what we get is only regret at deceiving the lama, the holy lama who gives up mahanirvana to come and help and guide us. To give up one sentient being is to give up all sentient beings, because we have taken bodhisattva vows to help everyone.

After this, life goes on; you do some practice, but there is not so much taste, not so much experience. Due to very strong negative actions towards vajra brothers and sisters and the holy lama, life felt very heavy and black. In 1989, I was in Pomaia at Istituto Lama Tzong Khapa for Lama Zopa’s teachings. He said in his teaching that if we live our life just for ourselves it’s like living as a vegetable. So I asked Lama Zopa how to change my life of rotten vegetable, and he said it’s good to become a monk. So I became a monk.

Then I stayed at Nalanda, but still I did not have much taste in Dharma practice. And due to the kindness of other Dharma friends, brothers and sisters, I am able to do this retreat. The conclusion is that I am now less worse than before, and especially I can feel sometimes the inconceivable kindness of the lama.

Wherever he is he knows everything about every one of his children, with his omniscient mind he knows exactly what we need. Like a mother to her beloved child he completely gives himself to us. Anyway, I am repeating what I read from Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche (laughing). But it touched me a lot, that’s why I repeat it.

If any of this can be useful to one of my brothers or sisters in Dharma then it’s okay, life becomes a little meaningful.

What about your life as a monk before you went into retreat?

I was staying at Nalanda doing my preliminaries. I asked the lama in 1985 to do a long retreat; he said okay, but I had to do the nine preliminaries. At Institut Vajrayogini I didn’t have much time. Anyway, I am not very learned – I took so much drugs and alcohol my mind is completely like a strainer, full of holes! Everything that comes inside goes out again. So I was not so good for study. Also, due to this I was not so good for meditation, no concentration. I worked a little and did my preliminaries.

How is your daily program?

Mainly I am trying to do as Lama Zopa says: three levels of motivation, purification, guru devotion, and little bit of yidam practice. This is what I try to do.

How do you organize it?

I wake up a little bit before 5 o’clock, do my altar, then motivation, devotion and bodhicitta, then again I repeat bodhicitta practice. Then Lama Chöpa with tsog, Dorje Sempa combined with prostrations, then…. Actually, my best time is in the morning when I have breakfast; lunch time is also good.

In the summer and autumn we need to prepare for the winter, so then I do maybe one or two hours of work outside. After this I might read a little bit and do some meditation on emptiness, something like that. After this some yidam practice and then again some prostrations and bodhicitta and then I go to sleep.

How many sessions?

I try to do as much as possible, not like yidam retreat where you do four sessions; I am trying as much as possible throughout the day, mainly concentrating on the three principles of the path.

Do you see your work as an obstacle or aid to your practice?

I think it all depends on motivation. There is a Hindu story about Arjuna the disciple of Krishna, who was a little proud about his good devotion. Krishna told him to go and see his best disciple and sent him to a simple farmer who was working hard all day long. Arjuna asked him: “What do you do?” He answered: “In the morning three times from the depths of my heart I ask the holy guru to give meaning to my life. Then I go outside and work all day long. When I come back at night, three times before sleeping I ask the holy guru to stay and give meaning to my life.”

Arjuna was a bit surprised and asked Krishna about the farmer. Krishna told him to take a bowl full of water and walk around without spilling even one drop. Arjuna tried and he was completely focused on his walking. Krishna asked him: “Did you think about me even once?” Arjuna replied: “Oh no, I forgot.” (Laughter.)

If I have the possibility while I work, I try to remember impermanence or the suffering of sentient beings; if I work outside and see even one suffering sentient being and get out of my self-cherishing mind, then this can become pure Dharma. And if I sit hours and hours in sitting position, thinking I’m the king of yogis (laughter), then this is not really Dharma practice.

Is it easy for you to live this kind of life?

I don’t think the difficulty comes from the thing one is doing, but is more the mess that goes on inside. It’s difficult if you have too many expectations. I mean, if you give some effort to changing yourself, and you are like a spider watching what’s happening in the web (you are waiting for some progress), then this is difficult. Because progress takes time.

So do you have less expectations than before?

I think maybe yes. And this is due to the kindness of the lama. In fact, you are not the one who is doing something. I read some Milarepa yesterday, and he said not to expect any realization quickly, but practice all your life until your last breath. We need perseverance, that’s completely sure. Whatever happens – good or bad, even a total mess in the mind – if you persevere, if you go on, you will definitely get something.

If you have a bad day, do you get less involved in your problems than four years ago?

Now, sometimes when I have a bad day, I say, Thank you, Lama. It’s really a gift, to understand that deep down I am not only this, I am not only this mess. It also brings to mind to do some purification, and also understanding of where I am exactly in the Dharma. And immediately when I say, Thank you, it’s just your blessing, it gives much more space. We always want to control everything, to do everything by ourselves. If we stop doing that, and just give up, and take it as a blessing from the lama it is much more easy.

Do you have many bad days?

(Laughing) Yes! Many more than good ones. But I say that I am stubborn.

When did you start to say thank you for problems?

I think some time ago. I had a hard time when I read the letter from Henri saying that you wanted this interview, because it put me in such a situation. It’s really the last thing that I want, that people read about me, but the lama sent me this. So I thought, Oh, I have to learn something from this.

So it is easier now than four years ago?

It has never been difficult to be in retreat, because I want to be in retreat. The difficulty is seeing that my life is completely useless. Since I started in Dharma I have prayed that I may become useful for others, to make my life a little bit meaningful, but then I see that I am becoming quite old…. We try to do purification and this and that, but the more I do, the more I am aware of the mess inside. So sometimes I feel a little bit discouraged, you know. I think it’s like Milarepa says, we have to practice all the day throughout the life. Because what we have to purify is like a black ocean. When I was doing my prostrations, sometimes I would feel this infinite black ocean.

How strict is your retreat?

Oh, I have to go shopping sometimes, but I try to go as little as possible. The last two months for example, I had to go outside one time. In the summertime it’s a little bit more, I have to go to dentist, hospital, shopping and so on, but in winter from December until April it is strict retreat; I don’t speak, at least as little as possible, but sometimes some people around, some friends in Dharma.

Do you teach sometimes, when you go out?

No, I don’t teach, but sometimes I do Nyung-nays. I was a little bit dyslexic, and I don’t know how to speak well, even to say normal things; to speak Dharma is even worse, so I prefer to shut my mouth.

But you lead Nyung-nays?

Yes, before at Annick’s place (Ganden Choling), in Toulouse and in Paris. People receive so much from it, and I think what is important is to see how the mind changes; I am sure that it will definitely change if we practice. Sure, study is important, but I think more important is to practice as much as possible.

What do you mean by practice?

For me I think what is important is that what we speak about bodhicitta and emptiness becomes our experience. We need some taste of non-duality, some space inside, otherwise there is no way we can understand everything about emptiness, Madhyamika and this and that. We need to experience truly inside, and not only one time. We have to repeat how all others are so kind to us, again, again, again, again, again. We have to feel the kindness of the lama, bodhicitta, renunciation and emptiness. Maybe yes, to study is a way to feel it ourselves, but I feel that practice is more. The thing is to have experience to gain experience of what we talk about.

Can you share some of your experiences?

I have no experience. Sometimes I read in Mandala about people who have such experiences, and I am happy for them, but it is not the case for me. But it doesn’t matter, because I truly believe that Dharma is the perfect way to become useful for oneself and others. Also, sometimes with experiences – I don’t say this because I am frustrated because I haven’t had any … well, maybe I do! – sometimes we can grasp onto them and they become my experiences, and perhaps this can become a danger for your practice.

I say that we have to learn about what life teaches us, every moment, wherever we are, in retreat or not. Also, I feel that beneath the deep darkness of delusion and pain in the mind there is also always light, our inner light of wisdom. And this is only due to the presence of the holy lama.

So do you think that pain and suffering are important for progress?

(Laughing.) I don’t say that we have to have pain, but if pain happens we have to say welcome, and also thank you; to teach me something.

Are you in retreat for life?

I don’t know. Sometimes I dream  of going to a cave and living a completely solitary life, but I think the most important thing is that this life becomes useful, and if it is useful to stay in retreat I will try. The problem is that to be really useful to others you have to have this experience…. Before, I see I was doing blah blah, speaking about something I didn’t know, about Dharma. But it didn’t change the mind of people; it doesn’t really help if you don’t have this experience. You really have to be a good example of what you talk about, otherwise people don’t understand. I think for me the purpose of doing retreat is to serve people. Anyway, I want to see Lama soon to ask him what to do with my banana life.

We have to accept that to change the mind takes a long time. And to enjoy what we do in Dharma also takes a long time. Just to be aware for one instant how much people are suffering in the world – I don’t speak about animals, not even a need to, just humans. They have so much potential but use none of it. There is so much suffering, but they have no method to go beyond this suffering. And we have this method, we are so fortunate; we just have to make an effort and enjoy whatever happens, just continue with Dharma-life.

What gives you the most happiness?

This I cannot express, I don’t know how to say….

You mean the lama…?

Yes. Because, the lama is everything, is Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. When we say we have the lama in the heart we also have every sentient being, as well as love and compassion, and we can be aware or relate to divine wisdom and divine nature. I don’t know if divine nature is really a Buddhist term, but I mean something like our ultimate potential. I don’t even know if the word happiness is enough to express….

Also, other sentient beings. I read a sentence, not from the lama but I really like it. It said: “In any situation when you meet anyone, this being offers you the happiness to love him, to love her.” This is incredible. Every person, every insect, offers us each moment the possibility to love them.

It means to go outside of your jail, you know. Suffering for me is the black jail of ignorance and inside is self-cherishing mind. It’s like my heart was crushed, I was feeling like that. My heart is here and self-cherishing is crushing it. And just when you think about others it stops. This is the most suffering, painful thing, the self-cherishing mind, self-grasping, the belief that we are separate from others.

I think it is incredible, for everyone, this ego-trip. We say sometimes, “Oh, this one has a big ego,” but for me ego is like a sickness, not something bad; you are not a bad man because you have a big ego, you are just sick and need to have more love and more compassion. And this for me is really painful, difficult even to be aware of this self-cherishing mind, this strong self-grasping. Just to feel separate from others, this is the basis of all suffering that we experience.

And opposite, what gives you the most suffering?

My self, this is sure, it’s sure. You know, the mess I have sometimes.

I think you have already said it, but still: What do you feel is the essence of Dharma?

It is very vast, but the essence of Dharma I think is compassion and wisdom.

So if you meet some people who don’t know about Dharma, how do you explain to them about compassion and wisdom?

It depends on which position people have. Maybe for them in the beginning it is better to say that the essence of Dharma is to have peace of mind, and for others it is better to say compassion, for some better still to say you are divine Tara or Chenrezig – it depends on each person.

Lama doesn’t always teach the same thing to everyone. He makes sure we know it has something to do with our mind, that everything is in us, and especially that we have this quality of wisdom and compassion. I think many times I read that the purpose of the Dharma is to help sentient beings. I think Buddha came just to help us. Then is takes many ways; he taught many ways: Hinayana, Paramitayana, Tantrayana.

The essence is to go beyond suffering. Because what is incredible, beautiful, is that we have this Buddhahood inside, but just we don’t live it, we forget it and we live for nothing; we life with no great purpose, and just constantly suffer and create the cause for more and more suffering. Buddhadharma is the antidote of all this suffering.

Can you give some advice to other people who want to do retreat, even a short retreat?

My best advice is that I prefer to shut my mouth. People know better than me, surely…. They just have to open up to the presence of the lama, not so much expectations….

How do you deal with desire?

What I do with desire! A bit difficult to stop (all the monks laughing.) I don’t know.

I think the main thing, what I said earlier, is to think of how desire puts you away from Dharma. Desire is something like “I want” and not “I give,” and you feel more and more duality, because you are separate from the object of desire; it’s a source of so much pain and suffering. If this suffering would be useful it would maybe be okay, but it is completely useless. Of course, if you can learn from it, yes, but normally…. Also, the mind is completely hallucinating. What helps in this case is to give up the object of desire to the lama.

So you offer it to the lama?

Yes. When I was having that difficult time years ago, I read a teaching of the lama that he gave in Pomaia about the self-cherishing mind. He said that even for the holy guru the self-cherishing mind is not able to give up the object of desire. And this is the point. If we offer then there is more space inside, and also in front of all Buddhas and bodhisattvas and in front of all sentient beings I say I want to help and not to give harm. Desire only wants happiness for me and forgets about the happiness and suffering of others.

I think this is how I try to work with desire, to offer it to the lama. It also depends what kind of object of desire, because if it’s one piece of chocolate it is not difficult to offer to the lama, but some objects are more difficult. But we need some space; if we are closed in with the object of desire, because the mind is completely hallucinating, if you try to find something wrong about desire, you can’t, can you? – it’s too strong. Also, you have to think about the delusions of infinite sentient beings – then you can get more space.

If your mind is strong enough to say, “I don’t want to fix my attention on this object,” then it is possible, otherwise we are not strong enough. Because for life, life, life, life, life we have always held onto the object of desire – “I want.” Or one can think in the Nyingma way, “Okay, this appears in the sky like a cloud and dissolves in the sky,” but to do this you really have to be trained, not just saying that and think you can do everything. We have to be sincere. Otherwise I think it is better to escape from the object.

This is a little of what I wanted to express with my banana story you know. Maybe better to escape from the object and take refuge at the feet of the holy lama. There is an infinite mass of sentient beings who need your help, you know. We have some responsibility; we receive so much from the guru and the teachings, I don’t know if I give enough answer….

Do you ever feel lonely?

Oh no. Now for more than four years maybe a few times, and even … no, it didn’t really happen.

Whenever you leave your little hut, especially if you leave for more than one day, do you feel that you lose something? Or gain something?

I lose something and I gain something, because we always gain and learn something from others. But the energy of the meditation, the retreat, because it has not yet stabilized in myself, when I go outside and especially when I come back I feel completely exhausted.

My mind is like a flea who takes speed; imagine one flea who takes cocaine on a trampoline – my mind is like that! Can you imagine how it is (laughter)! I found this image some time ago and I thought it was a good image (laughing).

It is very important to have some peace of mind when you go outside. This is difficult (laughter), because all the senses, the energy goes everywhere, especially when you go to town. When you go to a center to do Nyung-nay it’s completely different, but to go to town, to go shopping is completely different. But sometimes it’s quite interesting, you see that you can have some space you know. You see the things happening and say, “Okay, this is coming and going.”

And what do you gain?

Presence, that living beings, just what they offer you…. It’s infinite, you know. We are the expression of the kindness of people, nothing else. And just when you see them, their life; people, suffering – it’s just like they give you everything. They give you the possibility to grow a little bit. Like I said, they give you the happiness to love them. And this is incredible. You go outside of yourself, there is so much peace, like light. Or with animals, insects, especially animals, they have so much suffering. No way to escape the suffering, they have to experience this all their life.

How important is silence?

Oh yes, important. Because sure the mind is more concentrated; and all the energy you put into speaking you can put inside to look at what’s happening in the mind, you are more aware of the stream of thoughts. And also it is a kind of offering of the speech. I think it is important, very important.

Some people would accuse you of escaping the world – first because of being a monk and second because of being in retreat for a long time. What’s your answer to this?

You should ask me your questions by letter, then I can think about it (laughing). This question is important. I receive some money from sponsors, and for people in the world this appears like I am a parasite, not working, making money from people; some people even ask me if I have no shame about it.

I can say that I feel shame when I am not able to love people if they criticize me, I feel shame if I am not able to change self-cherishing mind into cherishing others. I feel shame when I feel proud for one tiny atom of qualities. I feel shame if I am not able to give up the object of desire, for the lama or for sentient beings. And I feel shame if I am not able to give answer to the suffering of others, just to give a tiny drop of blood for one being who just needs this for survival – for this I feel shame.

But I try to give meaning to life, to go beyond this self-grasping, then it’s okay to receive help from others and to dedicate as much as possible with our limitations, because we are still limited. But try honestly and sincerely as much as possible to change this life, then I think the purpose of life is accomplished. This beauty of inner nature, this infinite pure light inside us, if we put all our effort into this, then we go towards true meaning; but if we spend our life chasing after a rainbow, or a soap bubble, like material things, then….

What we have to do is choose what is more meaningful. Yes, it’s difficult because people have this thought, “Okay, you go to a solitary place to escape the world.” But, for example, I know a story about some people who died in town, and their neighbors were not even aware they were dying – so who is really escaping reality? Because reality is to serve others. I don’t say that I do, but if people do retreat for this purpose, I think it is most meaningful. Sure, if we go in retreat to relax, yes, we escape. But you can live in town and escape from your responsibilities too.

So if people ask you, how do you help sentient beings by being in retreat?

Do you mean me personally?

Well, let’s say in general, I mean someone with a pure motivation.

People don’t need only bread, food and clothes and job to live a happy life. We have to try as much as possible to touch inside the hearts of people, to say, “Look at what you are in reality. You are not just this limited being, not a separate being – I want happiness, I want to exist, I want to live – you are much more than this.”

But you have to be clear deep down in your own heart to bring this to others. Also you need skillful means to bring others to their own nature. I think this is one very important purpose that people in retreat can work towards for others, but it’s really a long, long, long and big job. Because I think the worse suffering of sentient beings is not to be aware of their Buddha-nature.